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foreign

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[Music]

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foreign

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here we are I'm going to be bringing in

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both uh Kathy Martin for about 15

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minutes and Bryce zabel welcome thanks

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so much for uh being on board for this

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uh this show I really appreciate both of

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you here

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well we're on board because it's the

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60th anniversary yeah so I Bryce you

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wanna well first of all uh you've been

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on several times I have to ask this

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every time because I have so many new

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listeners every single week just if you

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both can do just a real quick

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um nutshell of who you are I'll let

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Kathy go first on that who are you Kathy

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well to begin with I'm the niece of

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Betty and Barney Hill and the major

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researcher on the case uh have done

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years and years of research and with

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Stanton Friedman wrote captured the

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Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience

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I've written four additional books and

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I'm working on another one uh I was

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mufons director of experience or

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research for 10 years and have recently

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stepped down and continue with my

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research and investigate

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yeah and you do a wonderful job and you

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just received an award so yes yeah I did

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I received a Lifetime Achievement Award

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from the international UFO Congress

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congratulations that was awesome yeah

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and Bryce Sable

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from California

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I listen I'm jealous of Kathy getting a

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lifetime award because I'm no spring

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chicken anymore and I still don't have a

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Lifetime Achievement Award so you know

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put in a good word for you someday

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listen

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um well I started out as a CNN

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correspondent became an investigative

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reporter for PBS and then uh sort of

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flipped over to the dark side and went

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to work in Hollywood uh where I've on

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the ufological Paranormal point of view

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I created the NBC series Dark Skies

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which is uh uh on Tuesday the 21st of

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September celebrating its 25-year

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anniversary I worked on the crow

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Stairway to Heaven which is about the

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afterlife of course I wrote the first uh

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original film for the Sci-Fi channel

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something called official denial which

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was about the UFO cover-up and the fact

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that the aliens and that weren't aliens

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but were humans from the future and uh

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worked on taken with Steven Spielberg

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um have several projects uh under option

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but the one that's most relevant to

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today of course is

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um Kathy's wonderful book captured is

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under option by my production company

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and my wife and I have been developing

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it and we are out in the market with it

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right now trying to turn that uh

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terrific book into a 10-part television

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series a one-hour Drama Series so lots

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of things going on but that's kind of

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the short uh short spin although I

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actually have one other thing that I

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think is kind of since we're talking

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anniversaries and you've got the 60th of

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the Betty and Barney abduction and you

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got the 25th of Dark Skies this year I

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also kind of went through something that

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was very personal which was the 20th

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anniversary of the 911 attacks and I was

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the I just been elected chairman and CEO

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of the television academy uh just a few

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weeks before so literally a job that I

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thought was going to be some easy gig to

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turned into a very very difficult one

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and and probably one of the more extreme

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things I've ever experienced in my

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professional life now if I remember

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right Bryce maybe I have this wrong but

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were they actually canceled that year

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yeah listen there have been 49 Emmys up

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until 2001 and they had never been

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canceled or postponed in my first two

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months on the job I canceled and

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postponed them twice

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the interesting part of it of of course

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is that the first Emmys were supposed to

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take place on September 16 2001 which

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seemed outrageous and impossible after

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the 9 11 attacks so we postponed them we

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picked a date frankly just based on the

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ability availability of the Shrine

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Auditorium which turned out to be

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October 7th on that morning we invaded

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Afghanistan so we had to postpone them a

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second time and then we finally did them

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on November 4th of 2001 and they ran

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against the seventh game of a very

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exciting World Series so they they were

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not the Emmys that they were not my

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grandfather's Emmys they were certainly

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new and unusual yeah you got through it

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though right yeah wow amazing well all

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right let's talk about uh Kathleen can

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you believe it's been 60 years I

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remember you remember that event

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incredible

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it's really really something and

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um Bryce let's talk quickly I read your

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articles or Breeze through them

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um I

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I I'm surprised and and I I don't know

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if you probably knew every single thing

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that's in that one of the Articles yeah

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um uh Kathleen I'm talking to you um

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because but

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I was the way you wrote that it is

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surprising that it took that long 1965

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before the first article was written

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because they were talking about it you

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know I mean it did you know just it's

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amazing because the way things go like a

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neighbor can I mean just you say

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something to one neighbor and the

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neighbor can blab and then it gets into

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the Press somehow so it is quite amazing

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it took that that long well it's they

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talked to the family and we were sworn

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to secrecy to UFO investigators

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confidentially to uh members of the Air

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Force and the Navy uh and to people at

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their church and their close friends but

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they hadn't well also scientists but

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they had never intended to have this

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story go public because of their

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positions in the state of New Hampshire

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and also because they had an interracial

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marriage and they were very committed to

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working

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on equal rights and human rights

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and and Bryce so why don't you talk

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about how it was a left trial how do you

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say his the trail John Latrell senior

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yeah uh you know listen one of the

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things that has happened is by optioning

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uh Kathy's book and then trying to

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develop for a television series

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would be in success a minimum of say 10

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hours of Television so uh there has to

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be a story that exists outside of the

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Betty and Barney abduction because that

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can be handled in a relatively

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expeditious way there has to be the

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aftermath to it and of course there's a

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lot of aftermath to it

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um but I started kind of doing a deep

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dive into it I started reading

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everything I could get my hands on and

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and and sort of asking myself how did

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this come to pass and what are the

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things that I could uh that would

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provide Grist for good uh storytelling

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in a dramatic series and one of the

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things I I came across is that uh many

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people believe that the Betty and Barney

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Hill story began with the interrupted

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journey book that John Fuller wrote and

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then that became of course the UFO

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experience movie in 1975. well the

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Fuller book came out in 66 but that's

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not really where it started and of

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course Kathy knows this and she was just

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referencing that what happened is that

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in 1965 this uh John Fuller who was an

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investment award-winning investigative

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reporter for a paper called the Boston

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traveler uh published a series of

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articles about the hill case uh that

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broke in the Boston traveler and uh and

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a full year before the Fuller book came

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out a RICO shade around the world and

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got everybody's attention now obviously

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the book The interrupted Journey a year

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later got even more attention but it

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started with John Fuller and I know

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Kathy and I we've if we agree on like 99

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of of things but on this one we sort of

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come at it from a slightly different

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point of view I guess my take is that

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while I know Betty and Barney wanted to

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remain

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um uh you know they wanted this to

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remain among them and the people they

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chose it to be with I know as an

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investigative reporter myself that

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that's a good intention but I can see

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very easily how John Latrell managed to

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get the story I mean you talk about uh

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telling the family not to talk to

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anybody except Kathy your own mother uh

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spoke to uh you know um the I'm trying

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to think she oh yeah she's talked to the

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Newton New Hampshire Chief of Police

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within a day or two

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in a day or two yeah he was my father's

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best friend and stuff that's what I'm

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saying and I'm just following up on what

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Martin said so let's just I just ask

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your listeners to believe to consider

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this for a second Martin I walk up to

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you and I go man do I have a story I

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need to tell you and you go what is it

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and I go all right well look and then I

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tell you the story and I say whatever

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you do man this has got to stay between

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you and me and you say okay of course

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then you go home that night and you say

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to your wife I got to tell you this

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story that Bryce Abel just laid on me it

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was pretty amazing and you tell her and

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you say but whatever you do you can't

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tell anybody else and she goes of course

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I won't and then of course she does

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that's how stories kind of get out there

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and so it began with Betty and Barney uh

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talking to the family uh I believe they

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also told the upstairs renters on that

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same day but they filed uh reports as

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Kathy properly mentioned first with the

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peace Air Force people that became

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Project Blue Book And just because you

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file a report some with someone doesn't

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guarantee it confidentiality everybody a

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Blue Book of course and peace Air Force

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Base we're trying to track down whether

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this was an accurate description of the

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event and what it might mean so other

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people were spoken to they also filed a

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report with nicap the

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um National investigations committee for

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aerial phenomena and of course many

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people from nycat found out about it

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several of them besides the people they

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filed it with came to the the hill house

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and talked to them about it Betty talked

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to many of not many but several of her

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co-workers at appears they also spoke to

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a number of medical professionals on

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November 23 1962 this is just one year

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after the event the hill spoke to a

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discussion group at their Church which

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was a number of people they spoke again

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on September 7 1963 and then the big one

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for why it broke and why an

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investigative reporter would have got

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his hands on it is on November 3rd 1963

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this is two years before he would

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actually break the story The Hills told

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their story in public before 200

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different people at a public gathering

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of a UFO research group a working group

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so I guess my point is there was this

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story out there in the in the in the

275
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:24,300
world and John Latrell being an

276
00:12:29,090 --> 00:12:26,399
award-winning investigative reporter had

277
00:12:31,610 --> 00:12:29,100
heard about it and he tried to track it

278
00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:31,620
down and so what's been unfair to his

279
00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:33,600
work over the years in my opinion is

280
00:12:37,550 --> 00:12:35,880
simply that people don't know about it

281
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:37,560
or if they know about it they sort of

282
00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:40,079
make it feel like he was some kind of

283
00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:42,959
unethical guy that leaked this story

284
00:12:47,509 --> 00:12:45,600
well he didn't leak a story reporters do

285
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:47,519
not leak stories reporters report

286
00:12:53,090 --> 00:12:50,399
stories if anybody leaked the story it

287
00:12:55,790 --> 00:12:53,100
might be the friends the family the the

288
00:12:57,530 --> 00:12:55,800
people who wrote the reports uh the

289
00:12:58,970 --> 00:12:57,540
people who were at these public events

290
00:13:01,129 --> 00:12:58,980
they might have leaked it to John

291
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:01,139
Latrell but Latrell was just doing his

292
00:13:05,569 --> 00:13:03,839
job he was he was telling a story about

293
00:13:08,629 --> 00:13:05,579
something that he felt was a public

294
00:13:10,670 --> 00:13:08,639
interest and I'll close with this uh the

295
00:13:12,590 --> 00:13:10,680
public interest aspect of of Journalism

296
00:13:14,690 --> 00:13:12,600
which is something I was taught at

297
00:13:17,329 --> 00:13:14,700
journalism school at the University of

298
00:13:19,730 --> 00:13:17,339
Oregon was you know is it is it

299
00:13:21,769 --> 00:13:19,740
important it you know does he it Trump

300
00:13:24,290 --> 00:13:21,779
does the public interest Trump the right

301
00:13:26,569 --> 00:13:24,300
of privacy in some cases and of course

302
00:13:28,009 --> 00:13:26,579
it does in this case because let's say

303
00:13:30,829 --> 00:13:28,019
that Betty and Barney were the first

304
00:13:32,690 --> 00:13:30,839
people ever to be abducted uh or at

305
00:13:33,769 --> 00:13:32,700
least in the United States to report on

306
00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:33,779
it

307
00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:34,680
um

308
00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:36,660
and that this was part of something

309
00:13:40,850 --> 00:13:38,760
nefarious I mean who knows at the time

310
00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:40,860
but it certainly didn't seem right that

311
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:42,300
people were being taken out of their

312
00:13:46,189 --> 00:13:44,160
cars and and brought on more to

313
00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:46,199
spacecraft for some kind of uh in

314
00:13:51,650 --> 00:13:49,260
medical exam that I would say John

315
00:13:53,750 --> 00:13:51,660
Latrell did the world a favor by

316
00:13:55,490 --> 00:13:53,760
breaking that story because it's a

317
00:13:59,269 --> 00:13:55,500
matter of public interest to all of us

318
00:14:01,850 --> 00:13:59,279
today our our UFO abductions real and if

319
00:14:05,150 --> 00:14:01,860
they are real what is the intent of them

320
00:14:08,509 --> 00:14:05,160
because we want to know if we're safe so

321
00:14:10,310 --> 00:14:08,519
I look at John Latrell as kind of a a

322
00:14:12,350 --> 00:14:10,320
character that's been sort of discarded

323
00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:12,360
in the history of ufology but who

324
00:14:16,970 --> 00:14:14,220
shouldn't have been I look at him as a

325
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:16,980
guy who did uh who did strong good work

326
00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:19,680
and should be remembered for it

327
00:14:26,050 --> 00:14:22,320
uh Kathy do you have anything to uh

328
00:14:29,329 --> 00:14:26,060
comment on about that I do I I want to

329
00:14:34,370 --> 00:14:29,339
uh state that in that

330
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:34,380
presentation on November 3rd 1963. uh

331
00:14:41,150 --> 00:14:37,040
Betty and Barney had not even begun

332
00:14:43,790 --> 00:14:41,160
their hypnosis with Dr Simon that began

333
00:14:47,329 --> 00:14:43,800
in 1964.

334
00:14:50,389 --> 00:14:47,339
and so they were not on the speaking

335
00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:50,399
docket at that meeting they were trying

336
00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:52,920
to learn more from people who knew

337
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:55,260
something and so they went to this

338
00:15:01,310 --> 00:14:58,320
meeting and then people who knew them

339
00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:01,320
asked them to stand up and and say a few

340
00:15:07,189 --> 00:15:04,680
words about their UFO sighting and then

341
00:15:10,129 --> 00:15:07,199
from what I have read Betty spoke

342
00:15:13,250 --> 00:15:10,139
briefly about her dreams

343
00:15:15,230 --> 00:15:13,260
some of her dreams and and that was it

344
00:15:17,930 --> 00:15:15,240
so

345
00:15:22,129 --> 00:15:17,940
in John latrell's article

346
00:15:24,970 --> 00:15:22,139
he somehow acquired the information that

347
00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:24,980
was on Betty's and Barney's confidential

348
00:15:30,769 --> 00:15:28,860
hypnosis tapes this was uh these were

349
00:15:34,730 --> 00:15:30,779
medical records

350
00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:34,740
for held by their psychiatrist Dr

351
00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:39,480
Benjamin Simon who had uh seen Barney as

352
00:15:45,949 --> 00:15:42,660
a primary patient because Barney had

353
00:15:48,949 --> 00:15:45,959
developed psychogenically induced

354
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:48,959
um bleeding ulcers high blood pressure

355
00:15:55,790 --> 00:15:51,680
he had been hospitalized

356
00:15:58,009 --> 00:15:55,800
because of this and his

357
00:16:01,490 --> 00:15:58,019
symptoms would not recede with

358
00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:01,500
traditional medical treatment Dr Simon

359
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:06,720
had in invented a new way of dealing

360
00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:09,360
with the psychogenically induced

361
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:12,480
traumatic experiences that result in

362
00:16:18,889 --> 00:16:15,600
physiological problems during his work

363
00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:18,899
with soldiers during World War II he was

364
00:16:24,290 --> 00:16:21,540
a lieutenant colonel in the Army and he

365
00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:24,300
set up the psychiatric unit at the Mason

366
00:16:29,870 --> 00:16:27,420
General Hospital on Long Island and this

367
00:16:32,749 --> 00:16:29,880
is where he developed this technique

368
00:16:35,629 --> 00:16:32,759
that he used very successfully in fact

369
00:16:38,449 --> 00:16:35,639
the movie Let there be light a John

370
00:16:41,810 --> 00:16:38,459
Houston movie was made about Dr Simon's

371
00:16:45,310 --> 00:16:41,820
work and it showed him working with

372
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:45,320
soldiers and how they

373
00:16:53,150 --> 00:16:48,480
improved and finally got on the bus and

374
00:16:56,749 --> 00:16:53,160
and went home to their families so he

375
00:17:01,129 --> 00:16:56,759
was the perfect person for Barney to see

376
00:17:07,250 --> 00:17:01,139
these tapes were to remain uh medical

377
00:17:10,569 --> 00:17:07,260
records in in Dr Simons uh possession

378
00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:10,579
Betty and Barney at some point ended up

379
00:17:17,029 --> 00:17:14,760
with the real some real to real tapes

380
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:17,039
and

381
00:17:24,409 --> 00:17:20,640
so but they had not released this

382
00:17:26,029 --> 00:17:24,419
information to anyone except for

383
00:17:29,570 --> 00:17:26,039
uh

384
00:17:33,049 --> 00:17:29,580
maybe Laurie D'Alessandro who John

385
00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:33,059
Latrell named in a letter that he wrote

386
00:17:39,770 --> 00:17:34,880
in August of

387
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:39,780
1965. saying to Betty and Barney that if

388
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:42,480
they were nearly as nice as their friend

389
00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:45,600
Lori delisandro was that he would love

390
00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:49,860
to meet them and that

391
00:17:55,850 --> 00:17:51,440
um this

392
00:17:58,549 --> 00:17:55,860
would was probably the the best UFO

393
00:18:03,590 --> 00:17:58,559
sighting case that had ever occurred

394
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:03,600
well Betty and Barney uh did not want to

395
00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:07,679
meet him in fact uh he went up to their

396
00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:10,799
house and they left that house they went

397
00:18:15,770 --> 00:18:13,080
to my grandparents house and I was there

398
00:18:18,650 --> 00:18:15,780
because I lived across the street and my

399
00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:18,660
parents were there and they were

400
00:18:24,010 --> 00:18:20,460
distressed because there was a new

401
00:18:28,270 --> 00:18:24,020
newspaper reporter on their Trail

402
00:18:32,990 --> 00:18:28,280
then uh good for him yeah good for him

403
00:18:35,930 --> 00:18:33,000
well then uh he published these five

404
00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:35,940
articles in the Boston traveler and this

405
00:18:40,730 --> 00:18:38,700
was devastating to Betty and Barney they

406
00:18:43,330 --> 00:18:40,740
went to my grandparents house again and

407
00:18:47,210 --> 00:18:43,340
we met as a family what should they do

408
00:18:50,090 --> 00:18:47,220
this I mean they had no idea when they

409
00:18:54,590 --> 00:18:50,100
were confiding in people that this would

410
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:54,600
ever be made public in 1965 Barney had

411
00:19:00,590 --> 00:18:58,320
been uh elected to the U.S Commission on

412
00:19:03,049 --> 00:19:00,600
civil rights state advisory committee

413
00:19:05,450 --> 00:19:03,059
they'd been invited to Lyndon Johnson's

414
00:19:07,789 --> 00:19:05,460
inauguration Barney had received an

415
00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:07,799
award from Sergeant Shriver for his work

416
00:19:14,270 --> 00:19:11,940
on the federal poverty program and he

417
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:14,280
had received an award from the

418
00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:16,320
Archdiocese of Manchester New Hampshire

419
00:19:22,130 --> 00:19:19,740
for setting up a literacy program where

420
00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:22,140
people in New Hampshire because you had

421
00:19:26,930 --> 00:19:24,900
to take a literacy test to vote oh Betty

422
00:19:29,450 --> 00:19:26,940
was a social worker for the State of New

423
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:29,460
Hampshire she was working with Barney on

424
00:19:35,090 --> 00:19:31,919
all of these things and he was the

425
00:19:38,090 --> 00:19:35,100
director of the NAACP in his area as

426
00:19:41,570 --> 00:19:38,100
well this is something that was terribly

427
00:19:43,789 --> 00:19:41,580
shocking to them when this occurred they

428
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:43,799
didn't see it coming

429
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:45,120
and

430
00:19:51,289 --> 00:19:48,000
you know maybe John Latrell was a great

431
00:19:54,110 --> 00:19:51,299
uh reporter but in that letter he said

432
00:19:57,830 --> 00:19:54,120
to Betty and Barney he wrote If you will

433
00:20:00,650 --> 00:19:57,840
talk to me about this I promise you that

434
00:20:03,230 --> 00:20:00,660
I will not commercialize on your story

435
00:20:05,450 --> 00:20:03,240
in any way how is reporting a story

436
00:20:07,970 --> 00:20:05,460
commercializing it he didn't make a dime

437
00:20:09,890 --> 00:20:07,980
from it uh Kathy the person who made

438
00:20:11,570 --> 00:20:09,900
money from it was John Fuller who wrote

439
00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:11,580
a book and got paid for the book and got

440
00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:14,700
paid for the movie so uh and so he

441
00:20:18,830 --> 00:20:16,740
didn't John Latrell simply did his job

442
00:20:22,909 --> 00:20:18,840
as a reporter anyway I'll let you finish

443
00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:23,690
um

444
00:20:29,390 --> 00:20:26,940
this is what he said it it appeared in

445
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:29,400
the Boston traveler for five days it was

446
00:20:34,909 --> 00:20:31,919
terribly shocking to Betty and Barney

447
00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:34,919
and that is when we met as a family this

448
00:20:38,450 --> 00:20:36,600
was going to have an impact on the

449
00:20:40,669 --> 00:20:38,460
entire family and a lot of people in the

450
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:40,679
family were very upset of course they

451
00:20:44,870 --> 00:20:42,000
were like

452
00:20:48,289 --> 00:20:44,880
listen to the public being devastated or

453
00:20:50,990 --> 00:20:48,299
upset is not the standard of whether a a

454
00:20:53,570 --> 00:20:51,000
reporter can report something

455
00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:53,580
um many people are devastated when

456
00:20:58,190 --> 00:20:55,500
somebody reports about them whether they

457
00:21:00,350 --> 00:20:58,200
are mob figures or just the person down

458
00:21:03,590 --> 00:21:00,360
the street who pulled a cat out of a

459
00:21:06,289 --> 00:21:03,600
tree they may not want it to be reported

460
00:21:09,169 --> 00:21:06,299
on I mean so that's not the standard and

461
00:21:11,210 --> 00:21:09,179
Betty and Barney uh well I totally

462
00:21:13,130 --> 00:21:11,220
sympathize with them I'm writing a very

463
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:13,140
sympathetic treatment about these people

464
00:21:18,770 --> 00:21:16,559
but while I I sympathize with them you

465
00:21:20,930 --> 00:21:18,780
know they don't control confidentiality

466
00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:20,940
all right if you tell somebody something

467
00:21:25,610 --> 00:21:22,860
you control the confidence you know

468
00:21:27,470 --> 00:21:25,620
obviously you have an expectation that

469
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:27,480
conversations you have with your lawyer

470
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:30,000
or with your doctor are probably not

471
00:21:35,810 --> 00:21:31,919
going to go out but let's remember this

472
00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:35,820
all right the big complaint here is that

473
00:21:40,669 --> 00:21:38,280
um you know that those hypnosis tapes

474
00:21:43,130 --> 00:21:40,679
weren't uh something that he should have

475
00:21:45,409 --> 00:21:43,140
had access to and so therefore that's

476
00:21:47,930 --> 00:21:45,419
why it's implied that he leaked it he

477
00:21:51,409 --> 00:21:47,940
didn't leak anything he didn't steal

478
00:21:54,049 --> 00:21:51,419
hypnosis tapes I mean someone gave John

479
00:21:56,090 --> 00:21:54,059
Latrell access to those tapes or

480
00:21:58,070 --> 00:21:56,100
transcripts that's the only way he would

481
00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:58,080
have had it to include in that article

482
00:22:02,330 --> 00:21:59,760
and I'll point out one other thing that

483
00:22:03,950 --> 00:22:02,340
I found in my investigation the nicap

484
00:22:06,169 --> 00:22:03,960
report the national investigations

485
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:06,179
committee on aerial phenomena

486
00:22:11,149 --> 00:22:09,120
that had the 60 page version not the

487
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:11,159
initial shorter one but the 60 page

488
00:22:17,090 --> 00:22:14,640
version that did include hypnosis and

489
00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:17,100
discussions about the hypnosis came out

490
00:22:23,330 --> 00:22:19,740
several months before the article and

491
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:23,340
again someone gave that nycap report to

492
00:22:28,130 --> 00:22:25,200
John Latrell that doesn't make him

493
00:22:31,549 --> 00:22:28,140
unethical it doesn't make his work

494
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,559
improper he did a a stellar job of

495
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,840
Journalism because people gave it to him

496
00:22:36,770 --> 00:22:35,520
and you say well I don't know they

497
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:36,780
shouldn't have given it to him well you

498
00:22:41,330 --> 00:22:38,640
know what what about the Pentagon papers

499
00:22:43,610 --> 00:22:41,340
they were not supposed to be given for

500
00:22:45,710 --> 00:22:43,620
publication but they were and the public

501
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:45,720
interest in having the Pentagon papers

502
00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:50,159
actually printed has been demonstrated

503
00:22:56,270 --> 00:22:52,440
time and again in in American history

504
00:22:58,370 --> 00:22:56,280
the intent uh of the of the people who

505
00:22:59,930 --> 00:22:58,380
had access to them probably wasn't that

506
00:23:03,169 --> 00:22:59,940
it should show up in the New York Times

507
00:23:05,390 --> 00:23:03,179
but but that's what happened so I just

508
00:23:08,330 --> 00:23:05,400
uh I just I think I just look at this

509
00:23:10,669 --> 00:23:08,340
look I under understand the family would

510
00:23:12,730 --> 00:23:10,679
be upset I would be upset I understand

511
00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:12,740
that Betty and Barney

512
00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:15,900
certainly if if they hoped that this

513
00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:18,000
would never ever get out they were naive

514
00:23:22,010 --> 00:23:20,280
and let's face it why should they not be

515
00:23:23,390 --> 00:23:22,020
naive about that because they you know

516
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:23,400
it's not their light I mean that wasn't

517
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:25,200
their life up to that point of course

518
00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:28,320
they're gonna uh hope for the best but

519
00:23:34,450 --> 00:23:30,960
many many many many people knew about

520
00:23:37,730 --> 00:23:34,460
their case enough to get John Latrell

521
00:23:39,169 --> 00:23:37,740
looking into it and he did go to Betty

522
00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:39,179
and Barney and ask them to participate

523
00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:41,760
they said no we we prefer not to well

524
00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:43,500
that's not the end of it the fact that

525
00:23:47,149 --> 00:23:44,880
the person you're trying to write a

526
00:23:49,070 --> 00:23:47,159
story about says I prefer you not write

527
00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:49,080
a story about me if that was the

528
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:50,940
standard of Journalism then there'd be a

529
00:23:55,970 --> 00:23:53,039
lot less journalistic articles that had

530
00:23:59,090 --> 00:23:55,980
ever been written what John Latrell did

531
00:24:00,289 --> 00:23:59,100
is say well I wish you'd reconsider that

532
00:24:02,149 --> 00:24:00,299
um you know I'd love to talk to you

533
00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:02,159
about this case and then since they

534
00:24:05,690 --> 00:24:03,840
didn't want to talk to him he went out

535
00:24:07,549 --> 00:24:05,700
and started talking to the friends that

536
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:07,559
that he Jim Barney had told their story

537
00:24:13,310 --> 00:24:10,320
to he went out and tracked down he had

538
00:24:15,710 --> 00:24:13,320
copies for those articles of both the

539
00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:15,720
peace Air Force Base Project Blue Brook

540
00:24:20,990 --> 00:24:18,600
report he had a copy of the nycap report

541
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:21,000
and he had copies of the transcripts

542
00:24:28,010 --> 00:24:24,720
from uh the hypnosis sessions

543
00:24:31,070 --> 00:24:28,020
he did not go out and steal those in the

544
00:24:32,269 --> 00:24:31,080
dark of night people gave them access to

545
00:24:34,610 --> 00:24:32,279
those things

546
00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:34,620
knowing that him as a reporter who was

547
00:24:38,750 --> 00:24:36,900
working on the story would would pull

548
00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:38,760
from them in the writing of his story

549
00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:42,120
and I would argue looking back on it now

550
00:24:47,210 --> 00:24:45,000
the John Latrell articles have one

551
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:47,220
standard the guy is applying he's saying

552
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:50,640
well what happened and what what facts

553
00:24:55,310 --> 00:24:53,279
do I have before me that I can Marshal

554
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:55,320
into this story and again writing a

555
00:24:59,390 --> 00:24:57,360
story is not commercializing on it all

556
00:25:01,490 --> 00:24:59,400
right that's journalism so he didn't

557
00:25:03,890 --> 00:25:01,500
commercialize it he wrote a story about

558
00:25:06,169 --> 00:25:03,900
it based on the facts that he had now

559
00:25:07,549 --> 00:25:06,179
what did John Fuller do this is the

560
00:25:10,370 --> 00:25:07,559
second guy the guy that wrote the

561
00:25:12,529 --> 00:25:10,380
interrupted Journey he left things out

562
00:25:14,149 --> 00:25:12,539
of the interrupted Journey specifically

563
00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:14,159
because he didn't want to offend people

564
00:25:18,409 --> 00:25:16,260
in some cases he didn't want to offend

565
00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:18,419
uh Barney in some cases he didn't want

566
00:25:23,570 --> 00:25:20,820
to offend the psychiatrist in some cases

567
00:25:26,149 --> 00:25:23,580
he his Publishers said don't put these

568
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:26,159
things in the book so he left out facts

569
00:25:31,070 --> 00:25:28,080
so I would argue if you're going to put

570
00:25:33,289 --> 00:25:31,080
John Latrell up there and John Fuller as

571
00:25:36,830 --> 00:25:33,299
a journalist I'm voting for John Latrell

572
00:25:39,769 --> 00:25:36,840
John Latrell went after the story did

573
00:25:42,830 --> 00:25:39,779
his damned best to report it as

574
00:25:45,470 --> 00:25:42,840
accurately as he possibly could and

575
00:25:47,090 --> 00:25:45,480
given that it went out you know it's

576
00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:47,100
just a shame that those articles aren't

577
00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:48,600
collected for more people to read

578
00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:50,640
because they were the first time people

579
00:25:54,289 --> 00:25:52,500
got to read about Betty and Barney's

580
00:25:56,450 --> 00:25:54,299
case and he did nothing wrong he wasn't

581
00:25:59,210 --> 00:25:56,460
unethical he should get an award for it

582
00:26:01,789 --> 00:25:59,220
and in fact if we ever name an award for

583
00:26:03,529 --> 00:26:01,799
UFO journalism I would submit it should

584
00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:03,539
be called the John Latrell UFO

585
00:26:10,669 --> 00:26:05,940
journalism award because he did a great

586
00:26:13,730 --> 00:26:10,679
job and and I sail that with with uh you

587
00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:13,740
know great respect for Kathy who I I

588
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:15,900
Adore You Kathy you're a fantastic

589
00:26:20,149 --> 00:26:18,480
person I enjoy your book and I've I've

590
00:26:22,970 --> 00:26:20,159
optioned it I'm trying to bring it to

591
00:26:24,830 --> 00:26:22,980
life but the fact that Betty and Barney

592
00:26:28,010 --> 00:26:24,840
were upset that the story came out in

593
00:26:30,730 --> 00:26:28,020
1965 is not the controlling fact of

594
00:26:34,070 --> 00:26:30,740
Journalism it's just not

595
00:26:37,970 --> 00:26:34,080
I was very angry with John Latrell for

596
00:26:41,690 --> 00:26:37,980
many many years but recently before

597
00:26:44,510 --> 00:26:41,700
Stanton passed away he gave me a letter

598
00:26:49,070 --> 00:26:44,520
that he had written to John Latrell and

599
00:26:51,649 --> 00:26:49,080
John had responded to where he said that

600
00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:51,659
he had investigated that case in the

601
00:26:58,669 --> 00:26:55,140
White Mountains and he had found 12 at

602
00:27:00,590 --> 00:26:58,679
least 12 12. 14 Witnesses which has

603
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:00,600
helped you over the years hasn't it to

604
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:03,840
forgive him over that because he did do

605
00:27:09,950 --> 00:27:06,960
the investigation he did find witnesses

606
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:09,960
and this is very important yeah Kathy

607
00:27:14,930 --> 00:27:13,200
that I I I I I I think that's a point of

608
00:27:17,210 --> 00:27:14,940
commonality for us here to be honest

609
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:17,220
with you I again know how it hurts I

610
00:27:21,649 --> 00:27:19,200
mean I'd be hurt if it was my family I

611
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:21,659
get it I mean I totally totally get it

612
00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:24,000
but the commonality here is if you're

613
00:27:28,669 --> 00:27:26,640
trying to find I know that it is your

614
00:27:31,970 --> 00:27:28,679
interest to get the truth about the

615
00:27:34,850 --> 00:27:31,980
Betty and Barney case out there and you

616
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:34,860
know something that uh Latrell did that

617
00:27:39,289 --> 00:27:36,960
John Fuller did not do is exactly what

618
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:39,299
you pointed out John Latrell put on a

619
00:27:44,510 --> 00:27:41,760
pair of solid shoes and went out an

620
00:27:46,850 --> 00:27:44,520
expended shoe leather to try to find out

621
00:27:49,549 --> 00:27:46,860
what happened and he found active

622
00:27:52,490 --> 00:27:49,559
Witnesses now those Witnesses were not

623
00:27:54,889 --> 00:27:52,500
uh quoted in his articles ironically

624
00:27:56,570 --> 00:27:54,899
which I it's a huge irony to me but they

625
00:27:59,210 --> 00:27:56,580
weren't quoted because the newspaper

626
00:28:01,310 --> 00:27:59,220
thought well the witnesses that he found

627
00:28:03,649 --> 00:28:01,320
don't aren't actually saying

628
00:28:05,210 --> 00:28:03,659
you know anything about what happened to

629
00:28:07,850 --> 00:28:05,220
Betty and Barney and that's what we want

630
00:28:09,769 --> 00:28:07,860
the the Articles to be about but those

631
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:09,779
Witnesses have been very useful to you

632
00:28:13,850 --> 00:28:11,760
over the years even just knowing that

633
00:28:15,470 --> 00:28:13,860
they exist and they're interesting I see

634
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:15,480
you're scrolling this first article I

635
00:28:19,370 --> 00:28:17,039
wrote about it I mean one of the things

636
00:28:21,049 --> 00:28:19,380
I do in there is say you know what if

637
00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:21,059
you're one of those Witnesses or you're

638
00:28:25,130 --> 00:28:22,980
the the son or daughter of one of those

639
00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:25,140
Witnesses or a grandson or granddaughter

640
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:27,360
of one of those Witnesses you would help

641
00:28:31,010 --> 00:28:29,039
the world right now if you came forward

642
00:28:32,330 --> 00:28:31,020
and told us what you know and I'm sure

643
00:28:36,830 --> 00:28:32,340
that you've been doing the same thing

644
00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:36,840
Kathy as well you should and um I I say

645
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:37,940
um

646
00:28:43,250 --> 00:28:40,559
Witnesses whether they came from John

647
00:28:45,230 --> 00:28:43,260
Latrell or yourself or someone out of

648
00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:45,240
the blue right now are the bread and

649
00:28:52,190 --> 00:28:48,720
butter of of testimony and I'm I'm glad

650
00:28:54,110 --> 00:28:52,200
that that those were provided I I sleep

651
00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:54,120
better at night on this story knowing

652
00:28:57,950 --> 00:28:55,620
that you've been following them up and

653
00:29:01,190 --> 00:28:57,960
and I think that is a point where we are

654
00:29:04,970 --> 00:29:01,200
solid as a rock on

655
00:29:07,310 --> 00:29:04,980
I agree with that Bryce and uh I have

656
00:29:10,430 --> 00:29:07,320
looked for Witnesses over many many

657
00:29:12,649 --> 00:29:10,440
years uh there were people who in

658
00:29:16,010 --> 00:29:12,659
Upstate New Hampshire who spoke with me

659
00:29:19,310 --> 00:29:16,020
who had UFO sightings in the same time

660
00:29:22,909 --> 00:29:19,320
frame but I wasn't able to pin them down

661
00:29:26,029 --> 00:29:22,919
to knowing that it was the same night I

662
00:29:29,330 --> 00:29:26,039
had even one individual tell me that a

663
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:29,340
craft had landed on their farm that

664
00:29:35,450 --> 00:29:31,440
night but that wasn't the area where

665
00:29:38,810 --> 00:29:35,460
Betty and Barney were taken I

666
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:38,820
spoke to a man who was in the Navy he's

667
00:29:45,169 --> 00:29:42,480
retired now but he was in the Navy

668
00:29:48,350 --> 00:29:45,179
during that time frame he was in Maine

669
00:29:51,649 --> 00:29:48,360
as a young man on that night and he has

670
00:29:55,370 --> 00:29:51,659
written testimony and signed and sworn

671
00:29:58,430 --> 00:29:55,380
to it that he saw the craft he had a

672
00:30:01,610 --> 00:29:58,440
friend with him both of them saw a craft

673
00:30:04,549 --> 00:30:01,620
that night moving in the direction of

674
00:30:06,409 --> 00:30:04,559
where Betty and Barney were so that is

675
00:30:08,510 --> 00:30:06,419
at the University of New Hampshire in

676
00:30:10,909 --> 00:30:08,520
the archival collection now

677
00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:10,919
and and frankly it's it's incredible

678
00:30:16,490 --> 00:30:14,460
because it does help both I mean look uh

679
00:30:18,350 --> 00:30:16,500
we've taken a little diversionary path

680
00:30:20,510 --> 00:30:18,360
down here on the Latrell thing but the

681
00:30:22,730 --> 00:30:20,520
truth of the matter is we're here right

682
00:30:26,330 --> 00:30:22,740
now on your show Martin for one reason

683
00:30:28,610 --> 00:30:26,340
it was 60 years ago on September 19th

684
00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:28,620
going into the morning of September 20th

685
00:30:32,570 --> 00:30:30,360
that Betty and Barney had something

686
00:30:34,490 --> 00:30:32,580
extraordinary happened to them and to

687
00:30:36,590 --> 00:30:34,500
the extent that anybody was taking it

688
00:30:38,510 --> 00:30:36,600
seriously and trying to uh get that

689
00:30:40,909 --> 00:30:38,520
information uh was probably a good thing

690
00:30:43,610 --> 00:30:40,919
so I would just let me just try to bring

691
00:30:44,990 --> 00:30:43,620
a little closure here and so that

692
00:30:46,730 --> 00:30:45,000
because I don't the last thing I would

693
00:30:48,590 --> 00:30:46,740
want anybody to think is that Kathy and

694
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:48,600
I are anything other than on the same

695
00:30:53,090 --> 00:30:50,640
team here because here's the here's the

696
00:30:55,970 --> 00:30:53,100
thing I'm willing to stipulate for for

697
00:30:59,210 --> 00:30:55,980
Kathy quite clearly that if I was Betty

698
00:31:01,250 --> 00:30:59,220
or Barney or herself or her family or

699
00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:01,260
her friends or anybody it wouldn't have

700
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:02,880
been a great thing to wake up on the

701
00:31:08,029 --> 00:31:06,000
morning of October 25th 1965 and read

702
00:31:09,830 --> 00:31:08,039
those articles that would be hard okay

703
00:31:12,529 --> 00:31:09,840
and we have all been through hard times

704
00:31:13,730 --> 00:31:12,539
in our lives with our families and when

705
00:31:17,029 --> 00:31:13,740
you've gone through something that's

706
00:31:19,009 --> 00:31:17,039
particularly shocking such as this to to

707
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:19,019
have to read about it and realize okay

708
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:21,120
this has now changed my life okay

709
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:24,480
because now it's not a secret to to

710
00:31:28,190 --> 00:31:26,399
anybody anymore it's out there that

711
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:28,200
would be tough and I'm sure Kathy it

712
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:29,760
seems like Kathy is saying the same

713
00:31:35,450 --> 00:31:31,679
thing on the other side which is

714
00:31:38,090 --> 00:31:35,460
you know while we didn't love it and and

715
00:31:40,730 --> 00:31:38,100
all that that the contribution that he

716
00:31:43,490 --> 00:31:40,740
made if if we're only applying truth as

717
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:43,500
a standard is he actually tried a little

718
00:31:48,889 --> 00:31:45,600
more to be a truth teller than even the

719
00:31:50,930 --> 00:31:48,899
guys that the guy that did the book so I

720
00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:50,940
feel like we're we're not we're not a

721
00:31:54,830 --> 00:31:53,039
part we're not really that far apart are

722
00:31:56,990 --> 00:31:54,840
we Kathy I think we're pretty that far

723
00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:57,000
apart but I'm speaking from the point of

724
00:32:03,649 --> 00:31:59,600
view of a family member who lived it

725
00:32:05,750 --> 00:32:03,659
right you as a journalist yes see that's

726
00:32:07,610 --> 00:32:05,760
the thing and you know what I think it's

727
00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:07,620
right and proper

728
00:32:13,370 --> 00:32:10,320
um on any major issue and this is

729
00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:13,380
certainly when you talk about ufology I

730
00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:15,120
mean the reason you and I even know each

731
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:18,080
other is because I I am so profoundly

732
00:32:24,409 --> 00:32:20,880
impacted by this story that I wanted to

733
00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:24,419
know more about it so uh there are a lot

734
00:32:27,950 --> 00:32:26,220
of different ways to look at these

735
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:27,960
things but when you get into a big story

736
00:32:33,710 --> 00:32:30,480
like the Betty and Barney story

737
00:32:35,930 --> 00:32:33,720
um it's important to put it all on the

738
00:32:39,710 --> 00:32:35,940
table at this point in fact the way I

739
00:32:41,810 --> 00:32:39,720
look at it is it's 60 years later so you

740
00:32:45,409 --> 00:32:41,820
know we're not offending anybody 60

741
00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:45,419
years later now is the time to say olly

742
00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:47,460
olly income free if there's if there's

743
00:32:54,649 --> 00:32:49,919
Witnesses or family members of witnesses

744
00:32:56,990 --> 00:32:54,659
and it's also time to say you know um

745
00:32:59,570 --> 00:32:57,000
the hard feelings of of the past about

746
00:33:03,110 --> 00:32:59,580
anything the the people who are feeling

747
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:03,120
them are are passed you know so now the

748
00:33:08,450 --> 00:33:05,279
question is is the Betty and Barney case

749
00:33:11,630 --> 00:33:08,460
which is now 60 years in the past

750
00:33:14,330 --> 00:33:11,640
does it have a relevance for today and

751
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:14,340
is it aiming toward the future and I I

752
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:16,559
think it is and that is the number one

753
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:19,200
reason why I'm so passionate to bring

754
00:33:23,210 --> 00:33:21,120
this story to another group of people

755
00:33:25,130 --> 00:33:23,220
because I feel like it should not be

756
00:33:27,049 --> 00:33:25,140
forgotten and then I'll close with this

757
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:27,059
about why it should not be forgotten and

758
00:33:31,549 --> 00:33:29,100
why I hope we make it

759
00:33:33,230 --> 00:33:31,559
um as bet as Kathy just pointed out

760
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:33,240
Betty and Barney are an interracial

761
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:36,240
couple in 1961 and Martin that's pretty

762
00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:38,880
crazy because everywhere they went even

763
00:33:42,529 --> 00:33:40,200
though it was better in New Hampshire

764
00:33:44,750 --> 00:33:42,539
than Selma Alabama it doesn't mean that

765
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:44,760
people didn't look at them weird and and

766
00:33:49,789 --> 00:33:46,559
and that they did and Barney didn't

767
00:33:51,769 --> 00:33:49,799
encounter racism and so forth so I think

768
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:51,779
that the the thing that's interesting

769
00:33:56,330 --> 00:33:54,240
about their case now is not only is it a

770
00:33:58,970 --> 00:33:56,340
it's a first it's the first UFO

771
00:34:00,950 --> 00:33:58,980
Abduction reported in America it's the

772
00:34:03,350 --> 00:34:00,960
first case of missing time it's the

773
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:03,360
first use of hypnosis and it's the first

774
00:34:07,549 --> 00:34:05,519
description of the grace that makes it a

775
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:07,559
pretty great case but at the same time

776
00:34:13,129 --> 00:34:11,040
it is also a story about America a story

777
00:34:14,930 --> 00:34:13,139
about race in America at a time when

778
00:34:18,169 --> 00:34:14,940
we've been having the black lives matter

779
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,179
protests and so it really takes the UFO

780
00:34:22,730 --> 00:34:20,399
issue and the race issue which nobody

781
00:34:25,609 --> 00:34:22,740
ever thought belonged in the same thing

782
00:34:27,649 --> 00:34:25,619
and put him in an atom collider to take

783
00:34:30,409 --> 00:34:27,659
a look at them and when we finally make

784
00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:30,419
this 10 parts series if we're if we're

785
00:34:34,669 --> 00:34:32,940
knocking on wood if we're lucky enough

786
00:34:36,470 --> 00:34:34,679
to make it that's how we're going to

787
00:34:40,010 --> 00:34:36,480
look at it that at a Time in America

788
00:34:42,649 --> 00:34:40,020
where everybody saw the color of their

789
00:34:45,290 --> 00:34:42,659
skin the only people who seem not to see

790
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:45,300
the color of their skin were these

791
00:34:51,050 --> 00:34:47,520
aliens that abducted them

792
00:34:52,369 --> 00:34:51,060
pretty crazy yeah yeah about that

793
00:34:55,250 --> 00:34:52,379
um Kathy I know you've stayed a lot

794
00:34:57,530 --> 00:34:55,260
longer than you are planning to yes and

795
00:35:01,490 --> 00:34:57,540
I'd just like to mention Martin to you

796
00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:01,500
the listening audience that captured has

797
00:35:07,550 --> 00:35:04,320
been updated there's a 30 a 60th

798
00:35:10,730 --> 00:35:07,560
anniversary edition with new scientific

799
00:35:14,210 --> 00:35:10,740
evidence and new information

800
00:35:16,370 --> 00:35:14,220
yeah excellent all right thank you so

801
00:35:20,329 --> 00:35:16,380
much for joining us it's been a real

802
00:35:23,930 --> 00:35:20,339
pleasure thank you bye Kathy

803
00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:23,940
um yeah and very interesting and uh it

804
00:35:29,569 --> 00:35:27,540
is I I totally get how you can have two

805
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:29,579
different perspectives of this she's

806
00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:33,119
there's the emotional aspect of it yeah

807
00:35:37,370 --> 00:35:34,740
and then you're seeing it you know from

808
00:35:39,410 --> 00:35:37,380
the journalist aspect aspect of it one

809
00:35:41,089 --> 00:35:39,420
of the things I want to ask you Bryce

810
00:35:44,750 --> 00:35:41,099
um we'll talk about other things as well

811
00:35:49,490 --> 00:35:44,760
we have uh I think about 20 minutes left

812
00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:49,500
um but you mentioned that Fuller spoke

813
00:35:53,270 --> 00:35:51,180
um you you know had to leave some things

814
00:35:56,030 --> 00:35:53,280
out is what I mean in the book can you

815
00:35:58,370 --> 00:35:56,040
give do you have any examples yeah yes

816
00:36:01,849 --> 00:35:58,380
uh and by the way I just want to make

817
00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:01,859
one thing clear I am speaking as a

818
00:36:07,490 --> 00:36:04,020
trained journalist about the journalism

819
00:36:09,530 --> 00:36:07,500
aspect but in many respects it's Kathy's

820
00:36:12,109 --> 00:36:09,540
uh ability

821
00:36:14,210 --> 00:36:12,119
to feel the inner family emotion that is

822
00:36:16,430 --> 00:36:14,220
what's driving me as a dramatist I mean

823
00:36:19,370 --> 00:36:16,440
if I'm lucky enough to get to write 10

824
00:36:21,410 --> 00:36:19,380
hours of uh of a television a limited

825
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:21,420
series it isn't going to just be about

826
00:36:25,130 --> 00:36:23,280
the journalism so in other words it

827
00:36:27,890 --> 00:36:25,140
wouldn't be just about you know I mean

828
00:36:29,930 --> 00:36:27,900
even if there is a storyline where John

829
00:36:31,790 --> 00:36:29,940
Fuller is putting the heat on them and

830
00:36:33,710 --> 00:36:31,800
trying to break their story it's the

831
00:36:35,870 --> 00:36:33,720
emotional part that would impact me in

832
00:36:37,490 --> 00:36:35,880
other words I would imagine that Betty

833
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:37,500
and Barney while that was going on were

834
00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:38,640
freaking out

835
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:41,460
uh knowing that that this thing that

836
00:36:44,930 --> 00:36:43,200
they thought was contained wasn't going

837
00:36:48,349 --> 00:36:44,940
to stay contained all right so now

838
00:36:50,569 --> 00:36:48,359
examples of what Fuller uh did

839
00:36:52,250 --> 00:36:50,579
um I don't have them all in front of me

840
00:36:55,310 --> 00:36:52,260
at this point

841
00:36:58,970 --> 00:36:55,320
um but I think actually I do um have I

842
00:37:01,069 --> 00:36:58,980
if you'll bear with me for just a second

843
00:37:02,930 --> 00:37:01,079
um I think I have them right here in

844
00:37:04,130 --> 00:37:02,940
front of me now you and I have talked

845
00:37:06,109 --> 00:37:04,140
while you're looking you and I have

846
00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:06,119
talked about this when you were on in

847
00:37:10,970 --> 00:37:09,359
the past and so if I remember right it

848
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:10,980
seemed like you you and I were talking

849
00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:12,960
about this three years ago maybe even

850
00:37:17,690 --> 00:37:15,599
longer yeah you've been on this thing

851
00:37:20,690 --> 00:37:17,700
pretty pretty deeply I'm on the hunt

852
00:37:22,910 --> 00:37:20,700
Okay I actually I do have uh an example

853
00:37:23,630 --> 00:37:22,920
for example

854
00:37:25,970 --> 00:37:23,640
um

855
00:37:29,329 --> 00:37:25,980
Betty and Barney had a gun in the car

856
00:37:32,089 --> 00:37:29,339
right and um and that's now fact that's

857
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:32,099
established fact Kathy it's in her book

858
00:37:35,210 --> 00:37:33,359
Etc

859
00:37:38,270 --> 00:37:35,220
um but that's not what Fuller reported

860
00:37:40,730 --> 00:37:38,280
he said Barney went and got a tire iron

861
00:37:43,310 --> 00:37:40,740
out of the car because right that's in

862
00:37:46,730 --> 00:37:43,320
the movie right to report about a gun

863
00:37:48,890 --> 00:37:46,740
well you know what I'm sorry it was a

864
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:48,900
gun you should have written gun not tire

865
00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,079
iron that's a factor right and I don't I

866
00:38:00,290 --> 00:37:54,480
don't approve of that here's another one

867
00:38:03,410 --> 00:38:00,300
um he didn't want to admit that Barney

868
00:38:05,210 --> 00:38:03,420
all we know that Betty was looked at to

869
00:38:08,030 --> 00:38:05,220
see if she was pregnant right so there

870
00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:08,040
was that sexual aspect of that and he

871
00:38:13,130 --> 00:38:09,839
didn't want to because I don't know if

872
00:38:17,810 --> 00:38:13,140
it was race or sex or whatever but he

873
00:38:19,790 --> 00:38:17,820
didn't want to say that Barney had had a

874
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:19,800
sperm sample taken

875
00:38:26,569 --> 00:38:23,640
all right and so he left it out he wrote

876
00:38:28,430 --> 00:38:26,579
around it okay but to me if you're

877
00:38:30,170 --> 00:38:28,440
trying to understand why would an alien

878
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:30,180
take two people and conduct a medical

879
00:38:35,390 --> 00:38:32,640
experiment if the male had been

880
00:38:37,490 --> 00:38:35,400
ejaculated which is what happened I'm

881
00:38:40,190 --> 00:38:37,500
sorry if it's offensive to talk about it

882
00:38:42,530 --> 00:38:40,200
but that's what happened and he left it

883
00:38:45,710 --> 00:38:42,540
out when that's a pretty major thing

884
00:38:49,370 --> 00:38:45,720
then there was also a letter

885
00:38:51,290 --> 00:38:49,380
um that was written to nicap I believe

886
00:38:54,109 --> 00:38:51,300
it's nicap

887
00:38:56,270 --> 00:38:54,119
um that discusses the possibility of

888
00:38:58,310 --> 00:38:56,280
hypnosis and he decided Well I don't

889
00:39:00,589 --> 00:38:58,320
want to I don't want to ruin my lead so

890
00:39:02,569 --> 00:39:00,599
I'm going to take that out right so

891
00:39:06,050 --> 00:39:02,579
there's some three examples of things

892
00:39:08,450 --> 00:39:06,060
now uh John Fuller uh because he was

893
00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:08,460
commercial okay as opposed to

894
00:39:12,829 --> 00:39:10,740
the opposite he was trying to write a

895
00:39:15,950 --> 00:39:12,839
commercially successful book right and

896
00:39:18,109 --> 00:39:15,960
so he had a publisher uh dial press and

897
00:39:19,849 --> 00:39:18,119
those Publishers were all over him about

898
00:39:22,130 --> 00:39:19,859
well don't say this and don't say that

899
00:39:23,810 --> 00:39:22,140
plus he was trying to keep Betty and

900
00:39:25,849 --> 00:39:23,820
Barney happy and of course they probably

901
00:39:27,890 --> 00:39:25,859
had their own feelings about what should

902
00:39:29,630 --> 00:39:27,900
or should not be in the book and he had

903
00:39:31,849 --> 00:39:29,640
to keep Benjamin Simon the

904
00:39:35,210 --> 00:39:31,859
hypnotherapist the psychiatrist happy

905
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:35,220
and so I can only imagine because I'm a

906
00:39:38,329 --> 00:39:36,720
person who's had to write a lot of

907
00:39:40,190 --> 00:39:38,339
things over the years with network notes

908
00:39:43,310 --> 00:39:40,200
and Studio notes and I know what it's

909
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:43,320
like to get notes right it's not fun and

910
00:39:48,170 --> 00:39:45,839
it's difficult to reconcile them and get

911
00:39:50,210 --> 00:39:48,180
everybody on the same page so what

912
00:39:52,069 --> 00:39:50,220
happened when John Fuller was writing

913
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:52,079
that book The interrupted Journey that

914
00:39:56,810 --> 00:39:54,960
became what most people think is how the

915
00:39:59,329 --> 00:39:56,820
whole thing started

916
00:40:01,310 --> 00:39:59,339
um he had a hell of a time reconciling

917
00:40:03,710 --> 00:40:01,320
all the different ways that people were

918
00:40:06,589 --> 00:40:03,720
seeing this so anyway that's that's one

919
00:40:10,849 --> 00:40:06,599
take oh interesting

920
00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:10,859
um you know when when the I I I can sort

921
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:14,160
of you know I'm not giving him a pass by

922
00:40:20,930 --> 00:40:17,520
saying this but I can see back in the

923
00:40:22,910 --> 00:40:20,940
time in the 60s you know when this book

924
00:40:25,010 --> 00:40:22,920
was written where those things were

925
00:40:28,849 --> 00:40:25,020
those things were more controversial

926
00:40:32,030 --> 00:40:28,859
than I think they are now of course I

927
00:40:34,130 --> 00:40:32,040
mean but and in fact I only I don't

928
00:40:36,170 --> 00:40:34,140
bring it up in a condemning context for

929
00:40:37,910 --> 00:40:36,180
the guy I bring it up in trying to set

930
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:37,920
the record straight these two articles

931
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:39,359
that you've been kind enough to scroll

932
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:42,000
and I hope somehow if there's a place to

933
00:40:45,410 --> 00:40:43,920
put the URLs in for people yeah they're

934
00:40:46,550 --> 00:40:45,420
in the they're in the show awesome

935
00:40:49,069 --> 00:40:46,560
because

936
00:40:51,530 --> 00:40:49,079
what I tried to do is just say look

937
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:51,540
we're it's the 60th anniversary we're

938
00:40:57,589 --> 00:40:53,520
getting to the end of the of the line

939
00:40:59,329 --> 00:40:57,599
here for new discoveries right and and I

940
00:41:01,910 --> 00:40:59,339
think it's time to put things into as

941
00:41:04,490 --> 00:41:01,920
much context as we can so I tried to do

942
00:41:07,069 --> 00:41:04,500
that with each article I mean

943
00:41:09,710 --> 00:41:07,079
uh I'll give you an example

944
00:41:11,809 --> 00:41:09,720
um for 60 years people have sort of

945
00:41:14,990 --> 00:41:11,819
looked at the Betty and Barney case as a

946
00:41:17,329 --> 00:41:15,000
duality as a binary choice either they

947
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:17,339
were abducted by aliens or they're big

948
00:41:22,550 --> 00:41:18,720
fat Liars

949
00:41:24,650 --> 00:41:22,560
okay pick one but what if it wasn't that

950
00:41:26,390 --> 00:41:24,660
you know what if they were targeted who

951
00:41:28,970 --> 00:41:26,400
might have targeted them

952
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:28,980
um are there other explanations for how

953
00:41:33,050 --> 00:41:30,720
somebody could think that they were

954
00:41:35,870 --> 00:41:33,060
abducted that didn't involve aliens I

955
00:41:37,730 --> 00:41:35,880
mean the reason I'm bringing that up is

956
00:41:39,950 --> 00:41:37,740
that in the script that I'll be writing

957
00:41:41,569 --> 00:41:39,960
and the scripts that I'll be writing uh

958
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:41,579
in in success

959
00:41:46,490 --> 00:41:43,680
um the first thing you think of is not

960
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:46,500
in 1961 I guess we were taken by aliens

961
00:41:51,230 --> 00:41:48,960
you know Barney was a pretty pragmatic

962
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:51,240
guy he served in World War II he'd be

963
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:52,800
saying to himself there's got to be

964
00:41:58,609 --> 00:41:56,160
another explanation yeah right yeah so

965
00:42:00,710 --> 00:41:58,619
anyway I know we have I hope people will

966
00:42:03,770 --> 00:42:00,720
look at that enough about Betty and

967
00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:03,780
Barney and move on well before we move

968
00:42:10,309 --> 00:42:06,540
on to the Betty and Bernie Hill uh one

969
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:10,319
one last thing is I I do believe that

970
00:42:16,609 --> 00:42:14,160
Lee Spiegel uncovered a report at Pease

971
00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:16,619
Air Force Base separately from the

972
00:42:22,130 --> 00:42:18,960
report that was given but uh something

973
00:42:23,870 --> 00:42:22,140
on radar that same evening right do you

974
00:42:27,770 --> 00:42:23,880
know anything about that

975
00:42:30,170 --> 00:42:27,780
I'm not a super expert on it people have

976
00:42:32,329 --> 00:42:30,180
claimed over the years that there is a

977
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:32,339
corroborating radar

978
00:42:38,569 --> 00:42:36,240
um but I've also read some descriptions

979
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:38,579
of it that make it feel like there may

980
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:41,040
have been a radar

981
00:42:45,109 --> 00:42:42,960
sighting of something but it doesn't

982
00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:45,119
necessarily corroborate the time and

983
00:42:51,290 --> 00:42:48,240
place so it's not a Smoking Gun is you

984
00:42:52,910 --> 00:42:51,300
know Betty's dress and some of the

985
00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:52,920
scientific work done on the dress is

986
00:42:57,589 --> 00:42:54,720
probably more of a Smoking Gun than the

987
00:42:59,930 --> 00:42:57,599
the radar return yeah what about uh

988
00:43:04,849 --> 00:42:59,940
again before we move on yeah sure the

989
00:43:07,970 --> 00:43:04,859
the uh the detractors or the debunkers

990
00:43:08,750 --> 00:43:07,980
um you know saying that she saw a uh a

991
00:43:10,849 --> 00:43:08,760
light

992
00:43:13,730 --> 00:43:10,859
on top of a sign you know restaurant

993
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:13,740
sign or yeah that I mean or something

994
00:43:20,050 --> 00:43:16,319
like you know how do you address those

995
00:43:24,589 --> 00:43:20,060
uh the debunkers I guess well

996
00:43:26,690 --> 00:43:24,599
case-by-case fact by fact uh I I there's

997
00:43:28,730 --> 00:43:26,700
nothing wrong with being skeptical I'm

998
00:43:30,349 --> 00:43:28,740
skeptical of things and you're skeptical

999
00:43:32,809 --> 00:43:30,359
and particularly when you're talking

1000
00:43:34,430 --> 00:43:32,819
about something as extraordinary as the

1001
00:43:36,890 --> 00:43:34,440
existence of other life in the universe

1002
00:43:40,130 --> 00:43:36,900
coming here to our planet you better be

1003
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:40,140
skeptical it's a big ask for people so

1004
00:43:46,790 --> 00:43:42,960
um the way I try to deal with uh

1005
00:43:50,150 --> 00:43:46,800
Skeptics is with respect

1006
00:43:53,210 --> 00:43:50,160
um and dialogue the way I would deal

1007
00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:53,220
with debunkers is different someone who

1008
00:44:00,250 --> 00:43:56,880
appears to either be paid or just all

1009
00:44:03,530 --> 00:44:00,260
about making fun of people that have had

1010
00:44:05,329 --> 00:44:03,540
experiences or have seen things that

1011
00:44:08,329 --> 00:44:05,339
person I'm not on board with because

1012
00:44:11,089 --> 00:44:08,339
they're not approaching the case or the

1013
00:44:13,730 --> 00:44:11,099
the whole the whole Pro the whole issue

1014
00:44:15,170 --> 00:44:13,740
with respect I think respect is how you

1015
00:44:16,490 --> 00:44:15,180
decide how you're going to look at

1016
00:44:20,569 --> 00:44:16,500
something

1017
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:20,579
right no no it's it uh you know I like I

1018
00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:22,079
liked what you know Stanton Friedman

1019
00:44:27,170 --> 00:44:24,180
used to say you know I I forget exactly

1020
00:44:29,809 --> 00:44:27,180
it was Proclamation is basically you

1021
00:44:33,650 --> 00:44:29,819
know how a lot of uh debunking is done

1022
00:44:35,569 --> 00:44:33,660
and yeah yeah I mean uh and it's still

1023
00:44:37,550 --> 00:44:35,579
the case uh you know you've shown people

1024
00:44:40,010 --> 00:44:37,560
those articles they're on my uh medium

1025
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:40,020
publication Trail of the saucers and

1026
00:44:45,230 --> 00:44:43,440
just as a sidebar here uh the editor on

1027
00:44:49,309 --> 00:44:45,240
trail of the saucers a man named David

1028
00:44:51,410 --> 00:44:49,319
Bates a a a journalist himself has

1029
00:44:54,230 --> 00:44:51,420
tackled the new skeptical Inquirer

1030
00:44:57,290 --> 00:44:54,240
magazine that was devoted to being a

1031
00:45:00,530 --> 00:44:57,300
skeptical's look at UFOs and a debunking

1032
00:45:03,589 --> 00:45:00,540
of UFOs and he found so much to discuss

1033
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:03,599
about their kind of lame attempt at at

1034
00:45:08,030 --> 00:45:05,760
looking into this that he's writing a

1035
00:45:10,010 --> 00:45:08,040
five or six part series on it where he's

1036
00:45:11,930 --> 00:45:10,020
just taking them apart piece by piece

1037
00:45:14,750 --> 00:45:11,940
and I urge people to look at that we

1038
00:45:16,970 --> 00:45:14,760
call it Twilight of the Skeptics and uh

1039
00:45:19,130 --> 00:45:16,980
the reason we call it that is I I'm

1040
00:45:20,990 --> 00:45:19,140
personally of the belief that the the

1041
00:45:22,190 --> 00:45:21,000
sort of the

1042
00:45:24,290 --> 00:45:22,200
um

1043
00:45:27,050 --> 00:45:24,300
you know the idea that I'm skeptical

1044
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:27,060
because uh uh I'm just trying to well I

1045
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:29,280
guess I guess I'm using Skeptics instead

1046
00:45:33,230 --> 00:45:31,200
of debunkers there but I do think there

1047
00:45:35,390 --> 00:45:33,240
is a twilight in the skeptical look at

1048
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:35,400
UFOs if the government is willing to say

1049
00:45:40,190 --> 00:45:37,440
in a report that these things are real

1050
00:45:42,890 --> 00:45:40,200
and they exist then the issue isn't

1051
00:45:45,349 --> 00:45:42,900
trying to dismiss them all anymore the

1052
00:45:47,690 --> 00:45:45,359
issue is trying to have a dialogue that

1053
00:45:49,490 --> 00:45:47,700
includes well they could be this extreme

1054
00:45:51,770 --> 00:45:49,500
thing or they could be something else

1055
00:45:55,430 --> 00:45:51,780
let's see if we can Marshal the evidence

1056
00:45:59,630 --> 00:45:55,440
and the data and and learn together what

1057
00:46:01,490 --> 00:45:59,640
we're facing right and oh you know you

1058
00:46:03,349 --> 00:46:01,500
look at it this way too if if the

1059
00:46:06,109 --> 00:46:03,359
government is actually coming out and

1060
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:06,119
saying that the three videos that you

1061
00:46:10,849 --> 00:46:08,400
know are floating around yeah the gimbal

1062
00:46:13,370 --> 00:46:10,859
the go fast and uh what is the third one

1063
00:46:14,930 --> 00:46:13,380
the Tic Tac uh if they're saying you

1064
00:46:16,730 --> 00:46:14,940
know they have no explanation for those

1065
00:46:19,849 --> 00:46:16,740
but there are people out there that

1066
00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:19,859
think they're smarter and are coming up

1067
00:46:24,050 --> 00:46:21,599
with you know stories to what these

1068
00:46:27,109 --> 00:46:24,060
things are that can also this guy named

1069
00:46:29,210 --> 00:46:27,119
Chris um lato out there who's debunking

1070
00:46:31,790 --> 00:46:29,220
the debunkers you know he's a pilot

1071
00:46:34,250 --> 00:46:31,800
himself and um you know I'm really glad

1072
00:46:36,109 --> 00:46:34,260
for his work he's still very active

1073
00:46:38,809 --> 00:46:36,119
um so I want to talk a little bit about

1074
00:46:40,970 --> 00:46:38,819
Dark Skies where we've we've got we've

1075
00:46:43,490 --> 00:46:40,980
got uh about uh less than 10 minutes

1076
00:46:46,370 --> 00:46:43,500
about nine minutes or so but uh before

1077
00:46:49,010 --> 00:46:46,380
that I wanted to uh ask you what you

1078
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:49,020
thought about the new uh bill that

1079
00:46:53,210 --> 00:46:50,640
passed um that they're going to be

1080
00:46:55,270 --> 00:46:53,220
developing a UFO office it's pretty

1081
00:46:58,370 --> 00:46:55,280
exciting isn't it well

1082
00:47:01,730 --> 00:46:58,380
it's all iterations of the same kind of

1083
00:47:04,010 --> 00:47:01,740
news I mean the UAP task force is sent

1084
00:47:06,050 --> 00:47:04,020
you know was sort of the replacement for

1085
00:47:08,030 --> 00:47:06,060
atip and now this new thing if it comes

1086
00:47:10,010 --> 00:47:08,040
will be sort of the replacement for the

1087
00:47:13,010 --> 00:47:10,020
task force yeah so I look at the bigger

1088
00:47:16,490 --> 00:47:13,020
picture and just say it is right and

1089
00:47:18,770 --> 00:47:16,500
appropriate uh for our government to be

1090
00:47:20,750 --> 00:47:18,780
investigating

1091
00:47:23,390 --> 00:47:20,760
and if anything they need to be more

1092
00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:23,400
transparent about showing their work

1093
00:47:28,849 --> 00:47:26,520
and that's what I'm all about and so

1094
00:47:31,069 --> 00:47:28,859
yeah I think it's a good thing I don't

1095
00:47:33,349 --> 00:47:31,079
think you can ever rely any more on the

1096
00:47:34,430 --> 00:47:33,359
government doing everything you know I

1097
00:47:37,010 --> 00:47:34,440
think that we're going to have to do

1098
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:37,020
some of this ourselves right yeah I'm

1099
00:47:41,150 --> 00:47:40,079
I'm I did try to

1100
00:47:44,450 --> 00:47:41,160
um question

1101
00:47:47,390 --> 00:47:44,460
oh someone I sent them I actually did a

1102
00:47:49,370 --> 00:47:47,400
voicemail may or may not hear back uh

1103
00:47:51,770 --> 00:47:49,380
but I want to find out how much of a

1104
00:47:53,870 --> 00:47:51,780
public report this is going to be well

1105
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:53,880
no I you know because it's a yearly

1106
00:48:01,130 --> 00:47:57,359
report supposedly well if anything let's

1107
00:48:03,230 --> 00:48:01,140
just state that uh there seems to be a

1108
00:48:05,150 --> 00:48:03,240
growing consensus of the different

1109
00:48:06,890 --> 00:48:05,160
phases that we've been going phase one

1110
00:48:10,250 --> 00:48:06,900
is admitting they're real well that's

1111
00:48:12,650 --> 00:48:10,260
what the UAP uh report on June 25th

1112
00:48:16,730 --> 00:48:12,660
States in plain English

1113
00:48:19,370 --> 00:48:16,740
phase two is we don't make them which It

1114
00:48:20,990 --> 00:48:19,380
also says and phase three is we don't

1115
00:48:24,589 --> 00:48:21,000
think Russia or China make them either

1116
00:48:26,450 --> 00:48:24,599
so for me I'm all about phase four what

1117
00:48:28,370 --> 00:48:26,460
would phase four be it'd be like do the

1118
00:48:30,170 --> 00:48:28,380
math if they're real and we don't make

1119
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:30,180
them and they don't make them somebody

1120
00:48:35,690 --> 00:48:33,119
else makes them yeah so let's get to

1121
00:48:37,549 --> 00:48:35,700
work on figuring that part out folks and

1122
00:48:39,290 --> 00:48:37,559
it's it's kind of I've mentioned this a

1123
00:48:41,089 --> 00:48:39,300
number of times on the show that it's

1124
00:48:43,549 --> 00:48:41,099
it's a shame that they're not looking at

1125
00:48:45,530 --> 00:48:43,559
historical facts because you think about

1126
00:48:49,010 --> 00:48:45,540
you know what these things were doing

1127
00:48:50,569 --> 00:48:49,020
you know 50 years ago and they're saying

1128
00:48:52,010 --> 00:48:50,579
well it still could be Chinese or

1129
00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:52,020
Russian or whatever and there's your

1130
00:48:56,870 --> 00:48:54,000
Segway to Dark Skies by the way the

1131
00:48:59,630 --> 00:48:56,880
historical because I it's true the UAP

1132
00:49:01,910 --> 00:48:59,640
report if you read it makes it sound

1133
00:49:04,670 --> 00:49:01,920
like well nothing was happening and then

1134
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:04,680
in 2004 we started getting these reports

1135
00:49:08,690 --> 00:49:07,200
exactly yeah but the reality is I would

1136
00:49:11,750 --> 00:49:08,700
just ask anybody who thinks there's even

1137
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:11,760
a modicum of Truth to that spin to go

1138
00:49:15,589 --> 00:49:12,800
read Richard

1139
00:49:17,390 --> 00:49:15,599
fantastic books UFOs in the National

1140
00:49:19,010 --> 00:49:17,400
Security State and there's several

1141
00:49:22,190 --> 00:49:19,020
others that are great or read Ross

1142
00:49:24,170 --> 00:49:22,200
coldheart's uh in plain sight uh which

1143
00:49:27,530 --> 00:49:24,180
just came out this year just the the

1144
00:49:31,069 --> 00:49:27,540
accretion of historical cases and and

1145
00:49:32,990 --> 00:49:31,079
these people uh in our past have seen

1146
00:49:34,970 --> 00:49:33,000
things with the same technical

1147
00:49:37,309 --> 00:49:34,980
capabilities as they're seeing with

1148
00:49:39,950 --> 00:49:37,319
these current ones and let me put it

1149
00:49:43,370 --> 00:49:39,960
this way I don't think in 1945 China

1150
00:49:44,809 --> 00:49:43,380
even had a had an Air Force right so

1151
00:49:46,910 --> 00:49:44,819
they certainly didn't have things that

1152
00:49:49,190 --> 00:49:46,920
could go from 80 000 feet to 50 feet

1153
00:49:51,410 --> 00:49:49,200
they didn't have things going 13 000

1154
00:49:53,390 --> 00:49:51,420
miles an hour and I'd submit not only

1155
00:49:57,049 --> 00:49:53,400
that the Russians didn't and neither did

1156
00:49:58,670 --> 00:49:57,059
we so I think uh one of the things that

1157
00:50:01,250 --> 00:49:58,680
we like to do at this Trail of the

1158
00:50:03,170 --> 00:50:01,260
saucers is write about historical cases

1159
00:50:05,270 --> 00:50:03,180
so that they don't get swept under the

1160
00:50:07,130 --> 00:50:05,280
rug and this becomes just something

1161
00:50:09,950 --> 00:50:07,140
where you say well these are the cases

1162
00:50:12,109 --> 00:50:09,960
since 2004 because man there are

1163
00:50:13,790 --> 00:50:12,119
hundreds of thousands of sightings that

1164
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:13,800
are good site writings in the years

1165
00:50:19,970 --> 00:50:18,240
before 2004. yeah you know it's it's

1166
00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:19,980
kind of funny

1167
00:50:24,410 --> 00:50:22,079
it I feel more I don't know about you

1168
00:50:25,970 --> 00:50:24,420
but I'm because you've written about

1169
00:50:27,530 --> 00:50:25,980
this stuff so you're more comfortable

1170
00:50:30,829 --> 00:50:27,540
with already have been for a while I'm

1171
00:50:32,990 --> 00:50:30,839
sure but for me now I'm much more

1172
00:50:36,170 --> 00:50:33,000
comfortable talking to people

1173
00:50:38,210 --> 00:50:36,180
about what I do you know this UFO show

1174
00:50:39,950 --> 00:50:38,220
and you know I just talked to a guy at a

1175
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:39,960
hot dog stand two days ago and he goes

1176
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:42,000
you can't believe what happened to me

1177
00:50:47,089 --> 00:50:44,400
you know the more people you talk to the

1178
00:50:49,910 --> 00:50:47,099
more you hear that a lot of people have

1179
00:50:52,270 --> 00:50:49,920
a story well uh and by the way try

1180
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:52,280
creating a television series about UFOs

1181
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:55,920
because then people know that you're not

1182
00:51:00,049 --> 00:50:58,079
going to laugh at them and they say hey

1183
00:51:02,030 --> 00:51:00,059
uh you're the guy that did this I had

1184
00:51:03,470 --> 00:51:02,040
this thing happen to you and but in

1185
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:03,480
terms of how we're being treated today

1186
00:51:08,270 --> 00:51:06,000
it is true I've said over the years that

1187
00:51:09,890 --> 00:51:08,280
uh for most of my adult life I've been

1188
00:51:12,049 --> 00:51:09,900
treated like the drunk uncle at the

1189
00:51:13,549 --> 00:51:12,059
wedding uh when I start talking about

1190
00:51:15,410 --> 00:51:13,559
you if those people go well there goes

1191
00:51:17,510 --> 00:51:15,420
the Bryce again he's talking about those

1192
00:51:19,849 --> 00:51:17,520
UFOs again so they don't say that

1193
00:51:21,770 --> 00:51:19,859
anymore yeah and in fact rather than

1194
00:51:24,290 --> 00:51:21,780
being the drunk uncle at the wedding I'm

1195
00:51:25,970 --> 00:51:24,300
the guy at the wedding uh but I go to

1196
00:51:27,470 --> 00:51:25,980
them any Weddings But if I was at a

1197
00:51:29,809 --> 00:51:27,480
wedding I'd be the guy people would go

1198
00:51:31,609 --> 00:51:29,819
up to and say tell me what's going on

1199
00:51:32,870 --> 00:51:31,619
with this UFO thing I was reading

1200
00:51:35,030 --> 00:51:32,880
something the other day but I know you

1201
00:51:37,309 --> 00:51:35,040
you know a lot about it tell me what you

1202
00:51:39,230 --> 00:51:37,319
think I get that all the time now yeah

1203
00:51:41,150 --> 00:51:39,240
that's pretty sweet we only got a couple

1204
00:51:42,890 --> 00:51:41,160
of minutes here so let's talk about your

1205
00:51:43,609 --> 00:51:42,900
anniversary Dark Skies by the way which

1206
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:43,619
is

1207
00:51:49,790 --> 00:51:47,280
it anywhere well here's the interesting

1208
00:51:51,710 --> 00:51:49,800
well you you can you can't stream dorks

1209
00:51:54,589 --> 00:51:51,720
guys but let me just back up for 30

1210
00:51:56,510 --> 00:51:54,599
seconds here Dark Skies was a television

1211
00:52:00,589 --> 00:51:56,520
series that I created with Brent

1212
00:52:05,150 --> 00:52:00,599
Friedman for NBC uh and it aired in 1996

1213
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:05,160
and 97 20 hours its premise was uh to

1214
00:52:10,490 --> 00:52:07,920
tell the story of UFOs through the 1960s

1215
00:52:14,329 --> 00:52:10,500
weaving the historical events of the 60s

1216
00:52:17,210 --> 00:52:14,339
with real people real UFO events and

1217
00:52:20,510 --> 00:52:17,220
weave them together into this Mobius

1218
00:52:22,370 --> 00:52:20,520
strip of reality uh it was it's been

1219
00:52:25,309 --> 00:52:22,380
successful among people who care about

1220
00:52:26,750 --> 00:52:25,319
UFOs and Martin your question is well

1221
00:52:28,849 --> 00:52:26,760
where can I watch it if I wanted to

1222
00:52:31,010 --> 00:52:28,859
watch it right now I wish I could say go

1223
00:52:33,650 --> 00:52:31,020
to Netflix where it's streaming uh but

1224
00:52:36,049 --> 00:52:33,660
it's not it is available in in one of

1225
00:52:37,549 --> 00:52:36,059
the greatest DVD sets I've ever seen I

1226
00:52:41,150 --> 00:52:37,559
don't make a dime by the way if you buy

1227
00:52:43,849 --> 00:52:41,160
it so there's that you can get that DVD

1228
00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:43,859
set from Shout Factory which made it you

1229
00:52:48,109 --> 00:52:45,599
can get it on Amazon I think it's about

1230
00:52:51,770 --> 00:52:48,119
30 bucks but it's got 20 hours on it

1231
00:52:53,690 --> 00:52:51,780
plus uh four hours of a documentary plus

1232
00:52:55,970 --> 00:52:53,700
a bunch of Easter eggs when they

1233
00:52:58,250 --> 00:52:55,980
actually were putting the DV DVD set

1234
00:52:59,089 --> 00:52:58,260
together I called up Shout Factory and

1235
00:53:01,609 --> 00:52:59,099
said

1236
00:53:04,190 --> 00:53:01,619
I'm not comfortable with you guys doing

1237
00:53:07,849 --> 00:53:04,200
kind of a half-assed job on this thing

1238
00:53:09,230 --> 00:53:07,859
uh just to get product out I need to

1239
00:53:11,990 --> 00:53:09,240
work with you to make sure that it's

1240
00:53:14,270 --> 00:53:12,000
right and they said absolutely and I

1241
00:53:17,089 --> 00:53:14,280
have to say they were fantastic so it's

1242
00:53:19,010 --> 00:53:17,099
good it's it's one of the best sets that

1243
00:53:22,490 --> 00:53:19,020
you could ever get and I'll tease it

1244
00:53:25,970 --> 00:53:22,500
this way as an example during Dark Skies

1245
00:53:31,370 --> 00:53:28,970
we were given a non-negotiable demand by

1246
00:53:33,950 --> 00:53:31,380
Steven Spielberg to take 19 things out

1247
00:53:36,530 --> 00:53:33,960
of the show uh because he was doing Men

1248
00:53:38,690 --> 00:53:36,540
In Black at the time so we had to

1249
00:53:41,750 --> 00:53:38,700
because he was not as important as

1250
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:41,760
Stephen we had to go shoot 11 days on

1251
00:53:46,970 --> 00:53:44,880
our pilot that that was already done and

1252
00:53:49,190 --> 00:53:46,980
so on Dark Skies it's like going to film

1253
00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:49,200
school you can watch the two hours that

1254
00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:52,020
aired on NBC or you can watch the two

1255
00:53:56,270 --> 00:53:54,000
hours that were first produced before

1256
00:53:58,490 --> 00:53:56,280
Spielberg got his mitts into it so it's

1257
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,500
kind of an interesting thing I highly

1258
00:54:02,089 --> 00:54:00,480
recommend it I hope you go find it and

1259
00:54:04,190 --> 00:54:02,099
enjoy it and tell your friends about it

1260
00:54:05,809 --> 00:54:04,200
all right Bryce thank you so much it's

1261
00:54:07,370 --> 00:54:05,819
been a real pleasure as always always

1262
00:54:12,770 --> 00:54:07,380
loved talking to you see you thanks

1263
00:54:12,780 --> 00:54:22,990
foreign

1264
00:54:44,630 --> 00:54:40,490
[Music]

1265
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:49,610
foreign